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Cynthia
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1/18/2003
12:39:42
Subject: Encouraging more than one kink?
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Suppose someone was submissive, but he had just one very strong kink, and he was very attached to that kink. I am thinking of foot worship, but it could be anything. Would it be a good idea to try to develop new submissive kinks?

Would that give him at least more flexibility? If he could learn to enjoy any good submissive kink, maybe that would give his wife more options, so she could find something she likes. Or maybe it would take him a little down the road to a cleaner submission.

Cynthia


Dan
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1/18/2003
14:18:46
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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I don't know Cynthia. That seems contrary to cair4. Wouldn't there being a chance of both partners getting more involved in mainstream S&M with the punishment and the humiliation?

Dan


Cynthia
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1/18/2003
21:46:16
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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I was thinking that the new kink could be one of the better ones, like bondage or chastity. Or a foot fetish could become foot worship, and that could be changed to a servant scene.


Ray
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1/20/2003
10:59:47
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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Well, lets say someone likes white wine, but has no interest in red wine. Is that a bad thing? He likes white wine, so why should he bother tying anything else? Well, for one reason, to experience the full range of what is available.
Perhaps it's the same thing with kinks. People with very strong but limited kinks have really only formed their lives with limited experience. By developing new 'kinks' as you call them, he can then begin to see that there are other ways to perhaps reach the same stimulation he desires.
Is this a good thing? I haven't a clue! LOL. But it will broaded his perspective, and that is always good, isn't it? Love is something that comes to mind: the first attraction is physical, and could be likened to a kink. As they grow to know each other, they find other things to love: kindness, warmth, cooking, caretaking, many things can come into play in Love. So the physical attraction drops in significance to the overall appreciation he has for her. Could it be the same with kinks? That broadening his perspective will help him to grow in real submission to his Mistress? It could be. then again, it might not be. Why don't you try it out and let us know, Cynthia? Hehehehehe


Anonymous
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1/25/2003
23:32:39
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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Hi Cynthia, Ray.

I was thinking later on that maybe exploring more kinks might takethe significance away from the original kink. I think that there would be a chance to realte more with one's partner, and probably less of a reliance on kinks down the road.


William
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2/22/2003
15:47:53
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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It is difficult to reply to this question without a clear definition of a "kink". The web literature of cair4 does however suggest that it entails some disagreeable behavior (or its consequences) on the part of the man. The literature here purports that through caring domination the man can achieve a loving and caring relationships with his partner.

If you truly mean to encourage caring and loving relationships between people, as such, then the answer is no to encouraging still more kinks. To do otherwise is to forfeit the chance of real friendliness, compassion, sympathetic joy, and equanimity between partners. That would in turn lock two people in a conception of themselves and their relationship that is rooted in a source of unhappiness. It is a path down not up.

Unfortunately, the notion of caring domination expressed here clearly fails the test of equanimity. On the contrary, it encourages its opposite by reinforcing its committment to what philosophers have termed the "slave mentality." The word caring in the phrase caring domination does not immunize the participants from the harm done here.

Caring domination goes further it seems by encouraging the man with kinks to encourage similar kinks in his partner, if necessary by stealth. Where is the friendliness, compassion and sympathetic joy in that?






Cynthia
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2/26/2003
23:15:07
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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Hi William. Thanks for joining in. I am not sure how much we disagree. If two kinks are worse than one, then it is uncaring to create a second kink. But what if two kinks are better than one. If someone has four submissive kinks, he can see the submissive theme. If he has just one kink, he will focus on that kink.

Actually, the main problem with a kink like the foot fetish is that his wife isn't going to like it. If she did, that would be wonderful.

Stealthy wasn't a kind word. The methods we suggest probably won't work if a wife cannot find any joy in domination. And there is nothing evil in a husband washing the dishes or trying to excite his wife sexually.

Am I missing something? You mention the slave mentality. I don't think submissiveness can be removed, and I would not want to. Isn't good when men want to please their wives and submit to a higher moral code? I would like the man to feel like an obedient knight. Is that what you mean by slavery?

To me, submissiveness is a need for control or submission. Without that, the kinks develop. These are ways of being forced to submit, or signs of submission. Enjoyment is good, but kinks cause guilt and drive a wedge between him and his wife.

Cynthia


William
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3/01/2003
12:22:32
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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Cynthia. That you would ask whether you are missing something is good. It tells us something important. You are not happy with what you do here. It poses real doubts for you and you find it unsatisfactory. You would like to stop doing it, if not now, someday. You delay that end, but you know in your heart that even a day is an aweful lot to waste.

You may want to answer the following questions for yourself.

1. Is there really something such as caring domination? Since you do understand that the gross forms of domination are not caring, you have attempted here to move away from them. Is the result fully productive for you? What happens in your life when there is only caring?

2. You say "To me, submissiveness is a need for control or submission. Without that, the kinks develop." Is there a logical error here? Try a thought experiment in which you reason through the consequences of the "need for control or submission." What do you discover comes out the other end?

3. What is the meaning of the "simile of washing dishes"? Here is the simile:

Consider a man who washes the dishes thus: he washes the dishes and perceives in the washing his own submission; he delights in his submission, he craves his submission and he clings to his submission. When he is done he has a pile of clean dishes, not his submission, and he finds unsatisfactoriness in that. This leads the man to unhappiness. His partner's domination, even praise, deepens his craving but it does not change the fact that he merely has a pile of clean dishes.

Consider in contrast a second man who washes the dishes thus: he washes the dishes and perceives in the washing the mere washing of the dishes; he attends to his washing from beginning to end with his mind concentrated on that. When he is done, he has what he knows and sees to be a pile of clean dishes. He is not brought to anything else because he did not search for anything else.

Does this simile express a distinction without a difference? We can now measure clinically, using brain scans and other means, the effects of the two scenarios upon the man. In the first, the man is driven toward measurable emotional distress. In the second, the man is emotionally at peace.

What are the consequences for the man of these two states? The first man, the distressed man, has difficulty responding to stress. He recovers slowly from effects of stress. His immune response to disease is weak; he produces too few white blood cells to combat infection. The second man, the peaceful man, responds skillfully to stress. He recovers quickly from the effects of stress. His immune response to disease is strong; he produces lots of white blood cells.

You are now asking what this has to do with you. You are now asking how does this help me. An open heart and a little analysis will convince you that you can answer both of these questions here and now. Good luck.


Cynthia
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3/02/2003
16:20:04
Caring Domination?
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Dear William,

I have the feeling we really agree but somehow find ourselves arguing. A submissive comes to my website. I try to be dominant, so that he can feel controlled or submit, and so that he will listen to me. I try to avoid abuse like humiliation. I try to help him not feel guilty, and I encourage him to be strong and happy. I push for a real time relationship with his wife or girlfriend. Would you do anything different?

Most submissives lack the good relationship with their wife they could have. I know how powerful and wonderful caring domination can be. I want to put that into their marriage, so they will both be happy. Do you disagree with this?

If you are not submissive, we probably disagree on basic issues. Submissives cannot conquer their desires. Telling wives is emotionally difficult and dangerous. If I quit dominating, submissives will go somewhere worse. Caring domination can be very emotionally rewarding.

Cynthia


William
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3/03/2003
15:41:19
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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Cynthia:

It is not what I would do differently. It is rather what I would not do, which is to encourage their craving, clinging, desire for submission. That is cause of their unhappiness.

Yes, I would not pursue your goal for the reasons cited above.

On the contrary, you can quit encouraging your own domination and others submission and actually help people find happiness. This is the basic point.




Cynthia
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3/04/2003
01:08:40
Caring for submissives
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Dear William,

Thank you for coming back. I appreciate your effort to make the world better, with no gain for yourself.

But you are wrong about submissives. They don't choose to be submissive, it just happens to them. They go without any control or submission, and that doesn't make them better, it makes them worse. They try to fight it, and they fail. Most submissives are at least somewhat guilt-ridden.

You are half right. Dominants typically do things to weaken the submissive's self-esteem and pride. The submissives usually want that, but I don't think it is good for them and it probably makes their submissiveness worse. I try to avoid that. Yes, that first gulp of submissiveness can bring on a desire for more.

But caring domination, avoiding abuse and humiliation, trying to avoid guilt and strengthen the submissive, works. The submissiveness is less, or it is not such a craving. The submissiveness is also cleaner and less kinky.

So, what I am saying is, you can ask a submissive just to resist his needs, but that doesn't make him a better or happier person, and it eventually fails. If I didn't think I was helping people, I wouldn't do this.

I told one man he had to tell his wife and let her dominate him. Now his wife is trying to learn to dominate him. He wrote today "Thank you for all that you have done for us. You have made my life better and more pleasing. I owe you a lot."

Cynthia


DanW
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7/07/2003
12:02:06
RE: Encouraging more than one kink?
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The implied assumption here is that submissiveness is somehow bad. I would contend that it is the lack of a (cooperative) object for this extreme form of affection, and the attendant sense of emptiness that is the problem, and the cause when perversions develop.

Speaking of kink per se is confusing because it may refer to negative behavior (perversion in my terms) in one case, or simply non-mainstream behaviors appealing to both partners in another.


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